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Post by Kevin on Jan 3, 2008 1:36:57 GMT -5
Kevin, that was never my point. My point is; the Ice Dogs must sell out every game and maximize corporate revenue, concessions and merchandise if they are going to meet their 2 million dollar budget! Every time they do not sell out, three of these four revenue areas are affected and they loose money. Sit down and do the numbers, it's not hard to figure out. All the teams that average below 3,000 are struggling financially. The only way they can make up is by cutting things in their budget and then the whole program suffers (just look at Kingston). What happens when the City of St. Catharines finally realizes they cannot afford to give the Ice Dogs "free" ice again next season? That will be another 60 or 70k added to the budget. Also, while we are talking about this. Wouldn't you think that St. Catharines Minor Hockey (all the associations combined) bring in more revenue to the city than the Ice Dogs during the season and they have to pay for their ice? I'm sure if you add up all the tournaments and outside teams that generate revenue in St. Catharines, you would be very surprised!! I can't believe they haven't gone to City Hall demanding their ice be free (but then again, they have been around forever and are not running a private business!!). 1) My point for posting the attendance numbers was to show that the IceDogs do not need to sell out every game to justify a new arena. None of the OHL teams with new arenas sold out their old rinks yet they were still able to get a new rink. The only exception is Sarnia who sold out their 2200 seat arena consistently before getting a new rink. 2) Investors are unlikely to invest in a private arena if its sole purpose is to host an OHL team. The return on investment is too low and they could earn a better rate by keeping their money in the bank. Past private investment in OHL rinks only occurred if the city was heavily involved and willing to take most of the risk and take a lower return so the private investors could earn a higher return on their portion. I could however see investors interested in an arena in the Falls by the tourist district as this could also serve as an entertainment facility for ice shows, concerts and other events. I could also see private investment if the arena was part of a larger complex, whether it be located in St. Catharines, Niagara Falls or somewhere in between. The team's average attendance will have little effect on attracting investors as they will be looking at the faciilty as an entertainment complex as opposed to an OHL rink. 3) You are arguing that the IceDogs take a loss if they do not sell out but I would argue that they lose money even if they do sell out. Mr. Burke may have planned to break even but I think he now knows that it is not possible while he plays at the Jack Gatecliff Arena. However, the intent was always to get a new arena after 5 years and I don't think his plan has changed. 4) With regards to the free ice time, are you arguing that the IceDogs should not get free ice time or are you arguing that all youth sports should get free ice time. Free ice time at the OHL level is pretty common, even where the city has spent millions on building a new rink. Kingston is just finishing their new $40 million rink for the Frontenacs and the OHL team will also not be paying any rent. From the Frontenacs lease agreement: The provision of practice and game day ice at no charge is consistent with many OHL franchises operating in similar type venues. So if OHL teams are playing in new, modern arenas and are not charged for ice time how can St. Catharines charge the IceDogs to play in the worst arena in the OHL?
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Post by sportscrazy on Jan 3, 2008 23:19:43 GMT -5
I have not heard anyone complain about the free ice to the Dogs. Considering that they bring the city free publicity and provide us with another form of entertainment, its well worth it.
On the other hand, minor hockey gets subsidized ice. The organization only pays for about half of the cost with the tax payers paying the other half. I don't have a kid playing hockey, so why should I have to pay for someone else's kid to play hockey.
With the IceDogs, anyone can buy a ticket and go. With minor hockey, you can only play if you have a kid that plays hockey.
Personally, I think minor hockey gets way too much. We just spent $23 million on the new 4-plex, we subsidize their ice and now they want free ice because the IceDogs get free ice. Perhaps we should go the other way and charge minor hockey the full cost of the ice and stop making us tax payers subsidize other parents kids. Maybe that would be a good political stand for a councillor or mayor next election.
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Post by groulxisright on Jan 3, 2008 23:40:05 GMT -5
So if OHL teams are playing in new, modern arenas and are not charged for ice time how can St. Catharines charge the IceDogs to play in the worst arena in the OHL? ....because this is Niagara and our politicians take pride in doing every completely different than the reason of Ontario, no Canada, no the World
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Post by dogman on Jan 6, 2008 0:23:09 GMT -5
Have to admit that the Standard had a pair of good articles in the paper (Thursday and Saturday). They seem to only have game reports but both of these articles were non-game reports. The one on THursday even previewed that nights game vs Kitchener. Hopefully they can keep it up and bring us up to the level of other OHL city newspapers.
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Post by sphinc on Jan 6, 2008 11:42:21 GMT -5
I think that they need a positive guy who really likes hockey writing for the team, the Standard is so bush and the Sports section is hidden behind World news half the week. I cannot stand they way they write the game articles for any game, be it OHL or JRB, they always have a story talking about a player in the game recap, why can't it be 2 separate articles? I want a game recap that goes period by period and tells the story of the game. It used to be like that, when Gatecliff was still alive and writing. I know the writers there now do this as a job, but give us a little passion, insight and opinion during a game report for goodness sake. There are better writers on this web site than in that paper. By the way just because there is articles in the paper does not make them good. How about player profiles with a picture and likes and dislikes or such on a weekly basis? I'm not making this stuff up it has been done before and would add a little hometown feel to a team that needs to have it's roots start growing now!
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Post by bbuckle on Jan 6, 2008 23:26:26 GMT -5
I have not heard anyone complain about the free ice to the Dogs. Considering that they bring the city free publicity and provide us with another form of entertainment, its well worth it. On the other hand, minor hockey gets subsidized ice. The organization only pays for about half of the cost with the tax payers paying the other half. I don't have a kid playing hockey, so why should I have to pay for someone else's kid to play hockey. With the IceDogs, anyone can buy a ticket and go. With minor hockey, you can only play if you have a kid that plays hockey. Personally, I think minor hockey gets way too much. We just spent $23 million on the new 4-plex, we subsidize their ice and now they want free ice because the IceDogs get free ice. Perhaps we should go the other way and charge minor hockey the full cost of the ice and stop making us tax payers subsidize other parents kids. Maybe that would be a good political stand for a councillor or mayor next election. Sport Crazy, I'm not looking to debate the merits of the city providing free ice time to a private business looking to make money but I would like to state a couple facts. They don't bring any free publicity to our city as they are always referred to as the "Niagara Ice Dogs" Minor Hockey is paying $165.00 per hour plus an additional $10 per hour to help pay for the new arena which we have paid for over 8 years. SCMHA just held their Vic Teal Tournament over the Christmas break and I will guarentee you that we brought more money and publicity into the City of St. Catharines over our 3 day tournament than the Ice Dogs will bring into our city over their entire 5 year agreement. And our tournament is small compared to the Girls and CYO tournaments. SCMHA has also committed to donate $250,000 to the Seymour Hannah Complex. As President of SCMHA, we have never approached or requested free ice time from the city.
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Post by dogfan on Jan 7, 2008 12:01:49 GMT -5
Not looking to argue the ice time issue but I do think you are wrong on two other points.
First off you said - "They don't bring any free publicity to our city as they are always referred to as the "Niagara Ice Dogs"". Actually they do bring a ton of free publicity. They are referred to as the Niagara but the media also talks about "playing in St. Catharines", or "in the Gatorade Garden City Complex" and "the Jack Gatecliff arena" everytime they talk about the team. Besides St. Catharines is in Niagara right. Also you have to consider the television exposure that the team brings. The games are shown here in Niagara as well as Hamilton and across the province on the sports pack. More free exposure there. Secondly you said - SCMHA just held their Vic Teal Tournament over the Christmas break and I will guarentee you that we brought more money and publicity into the City of St. Catharines over our 3 day tournament than the Ice Dogs will bring into our city over their entire 5 year agreement. And our tournament is small compared to the Girls and CYO tournaments. I don't think you have been to many if any IceDogs games. There is usually a lot of visiting team fans that make the trip to St. Catharines to support their team. The games vs Kitchener brought a full bus load. Do some research, you'll find that a lot of visiting fans will post on other web sites asking about hotels and where to eat when they get to St. Catharines. Ask the IceDogs how many calls they get on that subject. Over the course of a season I think they would bring as much money to the city as your tounament and as for publicity I think they can top you in one weekend of games.
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Post by zeus on Jan 7, 2008 13:04:22 GMT -5
Not looking to argue the ice time issue but I do think you are wrong on two other points. First off you said - "They don't bring any free publicity to our city as they are always referred to as the "Niagara Ice Dogs"". Actually they do bring a ton of free publicity. They are referred to as the Niagara but the media also talks about "playing in St. Catharines", or "in the Gatorade Garden City Complex" and "the Jack Gatecliff arena" everytime they talk about the team. Besides St. Catharines is in Niagara right. Also you have to consider the television exposure that the team brings. The games are shown here in Niagara as well as Hamilton and across the province on the sports pack. More free exposure there. Secondly you said - SCMHA just held their Vic Teal Tournament over the Christmas break and I will guarantee you that we brought more money and publicity into the City of St. Catharines over our 3 day tournament than the Ice Dogs will bring into our city over their entire 5 year agreement. And our tournament is small compared to the Girls and CYO tournaments. I don't think you have been to many if any IceDogs games. There is usually a lot of visiting team fans that make the trip to St. Catharines to support their team. The games vs Kitchener brought a full bus load. Do some research, you'll find that a lot of visiting fans will post on other web sites asking about hotels and where to eat when they get to St. Catharines. Ask the IceDogs how many calls they get on that subject. Over the course of a season I think they would bring as much money to the city as your tournament and as for publicity I think they can top you in one weekend of games. The Cost of Ice time aside is the January 27th game against Sarnia not on the National TV Sports Channel, televised coast to coast? I would think this publicity and exposure must count for something and provides exposure that most of the minor hockey tournaments do not or can not provide...unless it's the Quebec tournament!! Also, the 53,504 fans that have attended Ice Dog games to date must indicate a preferred entertainment option, especially since as Dogfan indicates not all come from St Catharines or Niagara.
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Post by bbuckle on Jan 7, 2008 13:35:26 GMT -5
Not looking to argue the ice time issue but I do think you are wrong on two other points. First off you said - "They don't bring any free publicity to our city as they are always referred to as the "Niagara Ice Dogs"". Actually they do bring a ton of free publicity. They are referred to as the Niagara but the media also talks about "playing in St. Catharines", or "in the Gatorade Garden City Complex" and "the Jack Gatecliff arena" everytime they talk about the team. Besides St. Catharines is in Niagara right. Also you have to consider the television exposure that the team brings. The games are shown here in Niagara as well as Hamilton and across the province on the sports pack. More free exposure there. Secondly you said - SCMHA just held their Vic Teal Tournament over the Christmas break and I will guarentee you that we brought more money and publicity into the City of St. Catharines over our 3 day tournament than the Ice Dogs will bring into our city over their entire 5 year agreement. And our tournament is small compared to the Girls and CYO tournaments. I don't think you have been to many if any IceDogs games. There is usually a lot of visiting team fans that make the trip to St. Catharines to support their team. The games vs Kitchener brought a full bus load. Do some research, you'll find that a lot of visiting fans will post on other web sites asking about hotels and where to eat when they get to St. Catharines. Ask the IceDogs how many calls they get on that subject. Over the course of a season I think they would bring as much money to the city as your tounament and as for publicity I think they can top you in one weekend of games. That's just it, they come on the bus, they get back on the bus and go home. They spend no money in our city. The Tournament minor hockey hold, people come and live here for 2-3 days. They support the hotels, they fill their cars up, they shop at the shopping malls, they frequent restaurants, there's no comparison. As for exposure on TV what does it do. I have never met anyone who has chosen to visit St. Catharines or move here because they saw the hockey game on tv. But like I said initially, I do not wish to debate the merits of free ice time, my response was to Sport Crazy who made comments towards minor hockey not pulling their weight.
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Post by hercor on Jan 7, 2008 14:56:03 GMT -5
I'm surprised that it took this long for the subject to come up regarding whose team the Ice Dogs actually are, is it St Catharines or Niagara. I'm sure that there are those that would love to see the team called St. Cathararines Ice Dogs maybe they have an argument seeing that is where they are playing out of , that was never the intention of this ownership, there is a reason behind the name, this team would have been Niagara Ice Dogs no matter where they ended up, They're in Garden City because Niagara Falls didn't have Councilers with any visions or brains to realize the potential There is a possibility that this team may not be where they are now for long so no matter where they go in the region they will always be known as a Niagara team It's time that everyone comes to terms with that The league did not allow Mr. Burke to purchase this franchise so that they could play out of the Jack , there must be more to it that we know nothing about yet, there is no way that Branch wouldn't allow himself to get caught in the same predicament as St.Mike Majors This team is going to be here with a new building for a long time and it will always be a Niagara team........GO DOGS GO......
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Post by dogfan on Jan 7, 2008 15:14:26 GMT -5
I would agree that a hockey tournament does bring in a good amount of money to the city and to the region. Some of the visiting teams do stay in and visit Niagara Falls during the tournaments. Dollar for dollar they maybe they do bring in more in that weekend then the IceDogs do in a season. My main point was the publicity side. I really believe the IceDogs do a great job for the city. I would also have to agree with hercor. I think there is something going on in the background that we don't know about. I posted before, private investors will sometimes contact the league about building an arena and where it may be available. If everyone remembers North Bay's envolvment in this process, I firmly believe we have this team because arena investors didn't want to be in North Bay they wanted to be here.
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Post by sportscrazy on Jan 7, 2008 17:49:02 GMT -5
I have not heard anyone complain about the free ice to the Dogs. Considering that they bring the city free publicity and provide us with another form of entertainment, its well worth it. On the other hand, minor hockey gets subsidized ice. The organization only pays for about half of the cost with the tax payers paying the other half. I don't have a kid playing hockey, so why should I have to pay for someone else's kid to play hockey. With the IceDogs, anyone can buy a ticket and go. With minor hockey, you can only play if you have a kid that plays hockey. Personally, I think minor hockey gets way too much. We just spent $23 million on the new 4-plex, we subsidize their ice and now they want free ice because the IceDogs get free ice. Perhaps we should go the other way and charge minor hockey the full cost of the ice and stop making us tax payers subsidize other parents kids. Maybe that would be a good political stand for a councillor or mayor next election. Sport Crazy, I'm not looking to debate the merits of the city providing free ice time to a private business looking to make money but I would like to state a couple facts. I guarantee that the Niagara IceDogs bring more publicity to the city than any kids hockey tournament. Every game is on the OHL action pack thoughout Ontario, Sportsnet will be broadcasting the Jan 27 game coast to coast, every visiting team has a write up in their paper and they all mention St. Catharines. Besides this, the team has brought a lot of excitement to this Region and locals now have a exciting sports team playing in their own backyard. You seem to have an issue with the city giving free ice time to the IceDogs because they are trying to make a profit. But minor hockey gets subsidized ice time, do they not? I guarantee you that subsidy costs the tax payers more money than giving the IceDogs free ice time. And while minor hockey may be not for profit, some minor hockey organizations do have paid positions, do they not? And these paid positions would not be possible if the organizations had to pay the full cost of the ice. So while the IceDogs may be trying to make a profit for all their hard work, people in minor hockey are also making money for their hard work as well.
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Post by germancabdriver on Jan 7, 2008 21:05:12 GMT -5
bbuckle, you are right on with your assessment of the situation. I wonder how many other new businesses in St. Catharines were exempt taxes (or in the case ice costs) in 2007? If the City of St. Catharines is going to give concessions to only one business and not others, I'm sure someone will file a law suit! You have just proved that the positive cash flow that minor hockey brings in at $165 per hour and from the tournaments that are held here is much greater than the zero dollars the Ice Dogs pay for ice, the zero dollars the city gets from the Ice Dogs from concessions/parking and the few dollars that visiting fans leave behind when they come in for a single game! Again, who the HELL is going to build a 5,000-6,000 hockey rink in Niagara? Now the big question, how do you not know that Mr. Mylnek is still not footing the bill and had the Burke's be his front since he had to move the team out of Mississauga? ? St. Catharines just happens to a nice quick fix until (let me see) Brantford has a new facility!!!! What's that saying about "looking through Rose coloured glasses!!!"
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Post by dogman on Jan 7, 2008 21:30:34 GMT -5
bbuckle, you are right on with your assessment of the situation. I wonder how many other new businesses in St. Catharines were exempt taxes (or in the case ice costs) in 2007? If the City of St. Catharines is going to give concessions to only one business and not others, I'm sure someone will file a law suit! You have just proved that the positive cash flow that minor hockey brings in at $165 per hour and from the tournaments that are held here is much greater than the zero dollars the Ice Dogs pay for ice, the zero dollars the city gets from the Ice Dogs from concessions/parking and the few dollars that visiting fans leave behind when they come in for a single game! Again, who the HELL is going to build a 5,000-6,000 hockey rink in Niagara? Now the big question, how do you not know that Mr. Mylnek is still not footing the bill and had the Burke's be his front since he had to move the team out of Mississauga? ? St. Catharines just happens to a nice quick fix until (let me see) Brantford has a new facility!!!! What's that saying about "looking through Rose coloured glasses!!!" I'm not really against subsidized ice to minor hockey since I think its important for kids to be able to play hockey, but your assessment of the city getting postive cash flow from minor hockey compared to no cash flow from the IceDogs is a stretch to say the least. The city paid $21 million for a new 4-plex for minor hockey and now loses money with each hour of ice that is rented. Let me recap - the city pays $21 million for a new arena and then loses money on the building. Doesn't sound like such a great investment to me. Compare this to the IceDogs, which costed the city only $100,000. The IceDogs have also done a lot of good in the community lately. They attend public schools, held the teddy bear toss, silent auctions, $1 hot dog combos etc. This is a great investment in our community that would not have happened without the IceDogs.
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Post by rabiddog on Jan 7, 2008 21:31:39 GMT -5
I was wondering how long it would take before GermanCabDriver would be on here making once again negative comments about the IceDogs,,and there it is !!!!!!!! Why are you also negative German?
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Post by germancabdriver on Jan 7, 2008 22:15:55 GMT -5
because I have a square head!!! ;D
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Post by dogfan on Jan 8, 2008 0:45:57 GMT -5
bbuckle, you are right on with your assessment of the situation. I wonder how many other new businesses in St. Catharines were exempt taxes (or in the case ice costs) in 2007? If the City of St. Catharines is going to give concessions to only one business and not others, I'm sure someone will file a law suit! You have just proved that the positive cash flow that minor hockey brings in at $165 per hour and from the tournaments that are held here is much greater than the zero dollars the Ice Dogs pay for ice, the zero dollars the city gets from the Ice Dogs from concessions/parking and the few dollars that visiting fans leave behind when they come in for a single game! Again, who the HELL is going to build a 5,000-6,000 hockey rink in Niagara? Now the big question, how do you not know that Mr. Mylnek is still not footing the bill and had the Burke's be his front since he had to move the team out of Mississauga? ? St. Catharines just happens to a nice quick fix until (let me see) Brantford has a new facility!!!! What's that saying about "looking through Rose coloured glasses!!!" Seriously, you gotta stop. The first couple posts were bad but this is just funny. Someone's going to file a lawsuit? For what? The city can charge what ever it wants for rent(because this isn't a tax break or exemption), it's the rental of ice. You keep asking who's going to build the new arena. I think that question has been answered about ten times in this thread, each time with proof and valid points. You just keep saying "won't happen", well nows your chance to prove it. Come up with something, a newspaper article, anything, that suggests that a new arena will never happen. As for Mylnek, you gotta be kidding. Mylnek bought the Majors because he was an alumni and always wanted to own that team. If you knew anything about the organization and the people in it you would know how much stuff went on after the sale. The Majors owned everything down to the paperclips. They would not give the IceDogs anything when they left. Even took keys from staff members offices a week before the move and the had to ask permission to go into their own office. Does that sound like a "front man" or an "arrangement". Finally, if your looking to see someone move to Brantford, which is pretty far fetched, look at Brampton/Mississauga/Erie/Owen Sound/Belleville before you look here. Brampton/Mississauga both have bad attendance and the arenas are about 20 min from each other. The OHL could look at moving out one of those franchises to get something established in the GTA instead of splitting the market. Erie has a new NBADL basketball team moving into the Otters arena demanding all the prime dates and there is an indoor football team looking at going in as well. That would put the Otters well down the list and seeing basketball and football trump hockey in Erie, the entertainment dollar may not get to them. Owen Sound/Belleville both have questionable ownership that is looking for a better deal with their cities. Belleville city council has agreed to do some upgrading of the arena but that hasn't seemed to be enough for the owners. I really hope you stop because your really not that informed on the things you post, but I will say I do enjoy reading them.
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Post by groulxisright on Jan 8, 2008 20:47:50 GMT -5
You just keep saying "won't happen", well nows your chance to prove it. Come up with something, a newspaper article, anything, that suggests that a new arena will never happen Yeah........uhmmm.......err.............past and recent history........ Sorry
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Post by dogfan on Jan 8, 2008 22:15:54 GMT -5
A valid point but, not really the same situations. Both Reg Quinn and Rick Gay/Sherry Basin were looking to leave. Thunder fans will remeber two seasons of threats. They threatened to move if a certain amount of season tickets weren't sold. The fans passed that number and the team stayed. At the end of the next season they upped the number needed and upped the prices. The fans finally had enough and Gay had his way out to a brand new arena in Erie with a dollar a year rent. The Flyers were a little closer to the current situation. Reg Quinn wanted a new lease and the promise of a new building. They had an offer to move to North Bay if the city didn't knuckle under. The council in Niagara Falls voted against the renegotiation, personally I think they thought it was a bluff, and the team left the next summer.
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